[X]Jewel Poker Def discussions
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[X]Jewel Poker Def discussions
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First of all, thanks for guy commenting this project. That greatly encouraged me and provided side view on unnoticed mistakes. I will make an effort to get maps better :)
The project is located [link="http://www.nibbits.com/sc/maps/view/131242/"]here[/link].
I've decided to open the forum thread to keep comments clean. To make it live, i suggest to make a review of the comments available in first days of share.
azala
- Timer Stuck on leaver issue, confirmed, seeking the way to clear up player units on leave. Need trigger advice, guys.
- End-Round centering, confirmed, will be corrected.
- Hand Info menu issue, confirmed, this stuff is still unfinished.
- Two-Pair issue. I don't really see Templars imbalanced. You can't get much minerals with them in any case. They stronger than Marines, but hit only Ground, fire slower and their damage is really dispersed because of short range. Both Marines and Templars have damage equal to their basic fire cooldown, so they are same in the damage issue. Templars have faster damage growth and Storm, that's all. As for the Storm, it is never been about the damage in the first place. It's exacly all about shield dumping. Of course, you can collect Two-Pairs, but you will need Dragoons for Air, which means you'll be short on mineral supply, and you will need Archons as well, to counter the Muta's creep round.
Sato
- Thanks for aestetic analysis. That map never been planned as a map you can understand at once, because if you can, you will complete it very quickly. It's just may look unfamiliar, because map is all about poker units, not about Nexus with 50+ probes :) And if some player is failed to turn his brain up just a little to try another way, well I've never liked the people like that. Guys like that always disrupt the greatest games, where not everything is simple and obvious.
It's all about getting interest in the game. If player got it, he can discover the idea quickly.
- Sorry for my bad English. Not enough practice in public, just indignity and quarrels in the battle.net, duuuh. :)
Don't worry about the two-pair issue - I basically retracted it in the second post.
Yeah, the two pairs are fine. The only reason I felt I really had to comment is because you were saying that templars were strong vs "ground and air" which made me wonder just what kinda drugs you were on when you wrote that, azala. hahaha. just kidding.
To Xenoth: It is nice to see you are reading the feedback. This gives me positive thoughts about the future of the map and your mapping projects in the future, if there are any.
However I would like it to be a bit more clear -- to get the units in the Spade area where you mix .. what conditions must be satisfied to earn a unit there? I only get one about 1/5th of the time.
I do agree that the "50 miners on the stacked minerals" concept of New Poker Defense is at best silly and at worst a game-breaking mechanic. What you've done here is different and I like that.
The upgrade system seems OK. Growing costs make you decide "is this next upgrade really worth it? Even though I have five mutalisks, the next upgrade costs 300. I could upgrade my four marines, and then also upgrade my three hydralisks for the same cost (150 each.)" The tech system azala spoke of does work and I've seen it in his maps among others, but I think it would strip an important strategy aspect from the map.
Also, don't worry about your English. It's fine but I did have some trouble understanding what you meant in the map description, until I played it and re-read it.
Keep up the work on this map. When my latency issues are fixed I will spread it around USEast.
As a last note, you may want to consider protecting/locking this map so nobody can modify it. Or else you may end up with rigged versions on Bnet, and everyone can open the map and see how all the triggers work.. all the secret combos.. etc.
More things I noticed but should have mentioned earlier:
1. Agree with Sato - would appreciate a list of which hands give which Spade area units, and also what each combo of specials does.
2. The Doubler combo algorithm is pretty bad - instead of subtracting 1 mineral at a time and giving 1 gas, the way it's usually done is a "binary countoff", like one trigger for "subtract/add 64", then 32, 16, 8...etc. and if you start with a high enough power of 2, you can do the entire doubler in one trigger cycle. You can also be lazy and do 1000, 100, 10, 1, copying each one 9 times. Anyway either system is much better than what you have now.
Not entirely sure what you mean by "what each combo of specials does".. do you mean like a list of what all the spade-area mixing outputs are? If that's the case, I think his intention was to make those a mystery and "discovered by trial and error", since there are also some negative outcomes of the mixing. (To my understanding, one of them is an instant defeat?)
Sato
About the Prize units. These work quite the same way as in NPD. These units are: Monarch (top-card of King), Pisces (one-pair of Nines), Siam Twins (two-pair of Queens), Fortune Addict (Triple of Sevens), Mountain (u can guess, Straight of Ace), Blood River (Red Flush), Intelligence (Fullhouse of Jack) and Infinity (Four of Eights). SF and Gauntlet hands dont have Prize combo, coz they are extremely rare by default. So there's 8 prize units of different rarity and power, which can be paired by 36 different ways.
- I was looking for good protecting tool on SEN, but they all ended up either missing some library files, or made by korean and not translated, or killing (corrupting) the map file it's protects. If you know about something reliable, i would be very grateful for a hint.
- Don't worry about prize comboz. I implemented the Prize system just because it was no fun "Pokering" all the way up. In fact, Prize combos were written in haste, and never been modified. They're far not final. I'm planning rewrite the whole tab, and negative combos will just kill used Prize units, no life losses and instant defeats.
If, or when, rigged versions become real, i will understand that the map is popular more or less. Then i'll share next vesion with protection. Until then, while i have no reliable program, next release is unreasonable.
Finally, it's ok if someone see the triggers. Interest in the mapping will grow, possibly.
azala
- Yup, i know you reconsidered the Two-Pair stuff. Wrote just for the absense of second thoughts. Although I'm planned some changes in balanse of Poker Units, i'm pretty sure about the relative balance integrity, otherwise it's still would be Beta.
- open map and see by yourself :) As I already sad, it's not final.
- Doubler combo algoritm is written for the 1-based mechanic. When all mineral number five-times smaller, it works fine. I can re-upload map with fixed leavers issue and algoritm set to the 5-point stransfer, if it's necessary.
- I was looking for good protecting tool on SEN, but they all ended up either missing some library files, or made by korean and not translated, or killing (corrupting) the map file it's protects. If you know about something reliable, i would be very grateful for a hint.
If you're on a Mac disregard this message, I have no experience with them.
I use Uberation2 or OSMAP2. Uberation2 gives bad Nibbits previews, but otherwise works fine. OSMAP2 gave me library errors which are easily fixed: http://osmap.clanunknown.net/#rte438
I tested them out on your map and they work.
The prize combos are a nice addition because they give you specific hands to shoot for. Maybe you could put a small list of the prize units and how to get them in the in-game mission objectives to help out everyone? Not the combos, but how to get the units.
Personally I have not had much experience with protecting maps, as my maps are usually just played by me and few others. Azala's suggestions look fine, I have heard good things about both.
Thanks, that OSMAP2 seems to work fine. I'll use it for the next version, the map is already transfered to the Snow tileset and reconstructed. I'm glad that I asked the right guys :b
Im currently on a stage of checking balance weak points. Right after that i'm intended to get the final Prize table done. Actually i've made the Microsoft Excel file of half the size of the map, where all systems and tables is stored, including functions and two charts...
As for the mission objectives, I dont think i can put the stuff there. Originally, it has to be Prize combo result being randomly discovered each time players reaching the Bosses rounds, the more far, the more powerful ones, by message and new Mission Objective entry. Unfortunately, I've delayed that option in priority for the final Prize system build. I'm not sure about that idea now though, but pretty sure about giving the Player 1 an ability to run fast overview of the map areas and their functions, rather than give that most basic info on the way. Prize area will have solid middle to avoid stucking and additional beacon for deblocking combo-boxes.
Returning to the Prize Units listing, you'll be able to get them by using Hand Info Terminal. On use it will give you the text message with corresponding description of Hand itself, Hand Units and Prize Unit.
-.-
Sorry for littering the comments, haven't noticed the thread. My bad, someone kill me please!
-.-
Hi, I wanted to have you recheck the balance of Top Gun (topcard hand) and the Corsair that you get with it when its ace card high.
The corsair is about 50+22 and the hand of ace high is very easy to get. With five upgrades to Protoss air I was able to very easily finish the Poker God boss level. Also, the Top Gun scout has +20 to ground units which may be a little too much since its the "Lowest ranked" hand.
Will be keeping my eye out for next release.
Sato
Let's make things more clear :D
Scout hits for 48 dmg with cooldown of 30. Result DPS (damage per second) rating is 25 (damage per second on Normal game speed).
Marine hits for 15 dmg with cooldown of 15. Result DPS rating is 15 for one marine. While you gain 2 marines at any given time, that gives raw DPS of 30.
Conclusion: Marines damage is more than 2 times less, but 2 marines making 4 times as many hits in the same time as Scout. Adding that they're also have Stimpacks giving them even more hits upon used. So, Marines much better against Shielded and Horde creeps, but far worse against Boss creeps, coz they waste more damage on creeps armor. Scouts also have pathetic Anti-Air attack, while Marines have nominal damage on any enemies. Marines have 45% damage increase on Upgrade, while Scouts have 42%.
Corsair damage is 54+22, 40% damage increase, DPS is 100+. Yup, thats looks cool, but it's cool only against Air, coz that the only creep type that unit covers and that is only ~1/5 of all creeps. Also, Corsair have fast attack with decend damage, while Devourer have much less DPS rating, but making much more damage per hit, which makes him figurally ignoring armor at all. So, you can have flaw with killing Flying Boss level, coz much of Corsair DPS will be countered by it's armor. Again, there's moments when some units is better and there's moments when they're worse. I'm have no trouble if Player can easy win the Final Boss by Corsairs IF he still can reach it trough all other creep types, which can be more difficult. The only units that have similar DPS rating is Kerrigan Ghost and Arbiter. As you can guess, they're both Universal in idea of targeting limits.
What am I trying to say, is that you could not properly judge about unit power just in vision of their damage. There is not such a setting for it. Creeps are all different in their weak sides. Scouts cover one creeps, Marines cover other creeps, Mutas cover all creeps at lesser rates and so on. You CAN win by upgrading Anything IF this is the unit setting that CAN cover all the levels.
Horded creeps is countered by Splash and resistant to Explosive damage type. Shielded creeps is countered by Fast Hits and Abilities, while resistant to Slow Hits, making damage up for 255 practically nullified. Air creeps are countered by Universal and AA attacks and ignores AG specialists. Boss creeps, as opposed to Horde, is countered by the High-Damage units and resistant to Fast Attacks with Low-Damage. That system is based on four balanse aspects: the aspect of mineral gain/usage, the aspect of attacks damage/rate ratio, the aspect of AG/AA power ratio, and the aspect of Damage Type harmony. Loosing the game always coming from encountering problems in either of these aspects.
The great joke of this map is that no player can surely say what is imbalanced. The most usual mistake on play is that players think everything is good, and starting to upgrade everything at once, without noticing that only preferred Hands can become strong enough. The difference in Mineral gain is what making high-ranked Hands more desireable. The unit overall power is only the half-side of Hand value.
Analyse all Tiers respectively by yourself to undersand the idea for sure. Compare them in complex of Damage, Rate, Damage Type, Targeting Limits, Splash area and type. Range have miscallenous matter in circuit-based defenses, making up the other unit parameter - Damage Focus (the hypothetical ability of unit to make more of it's damage to the single target rather than dispersing it around).
I'm planning to rise Scout damage to 50+21, and cut Corsair damage to 48+20, that's all considering Top units. Also, as based on observations, Archon will be boosted while Guardian will be weaked. The reason is that Guardian seems to be all-countering on Ground layer and having great Damage Focus out of his range and Archon is missing hits due of flawed targeting AI towards moving targets.
Another major issue popped up recently. As i sad before, the next version were planned to be on Snow tileset. Unfortunately, first gameplay tests showed that this tileset and most of others are not visually tolerable with null-terrain which is used as background. It's contrast just too strong to keep playing unstrained. Which means i'm declining that idea. All versions that will have virtual character (training sessions) will be made on Twilight tileset with Protoss GUI, while all Real-Action versions will be made on Ashworld tileset with Terran GUI.
If that's your desired balance then I have no problems. Thanks for the update.
Turns out to be a really easy fix. Just preserve-trig remove all spider mines for p12 ("Neutral", I don't remember if "Neutral Players" also covers this). Because when a player leaves, his spider mine marker goes to p12, throwing off the game state triggers.
I added that one trigger and played a few games to test it, so I'm pretty sure that's it.
It's even easier than that. Just needed to change All Players to Force 1 in trigger regarding poker phase starting. Your variant works too, but it adding non-required trigger loop.
Still cant figure out how OSMAP propertly work. Were deceived by plain programm run, but in fact it can only open the map and save it, nothing more is seems to be available.
You have to click "options" and enable "compress map on save" to protect it.
FYI I'm almost done with a substantial gameplay edit based on v1.0. Let me know if you want to a take a look at it.
Great map, Xenoth. It looks way better than NPD and has some cool concepts. I find it odd that I can beat it most of the time by going for ace/king highs and multiplying my cash via the 2 king high combo. Each game, I'd have 15-20 scouts at lv10 and about 10 corsairs.
Just judging by kill count, rines, templars, guards and archons all feel a bit weak, especially compared to scouts. Guards and archons are very weak imho considering their rarity.
Great map. Look forward to the update.
24.84.185.xxx
I finished the game and it said that I should try the other version of jewel def I think it was called crystal?
When will that map be avalible?
78.82.73.xxx
Zasz
Aknowledged. The main reason for that build is that current theme is very sensitive to overpowered units, so if all other units would be considerally stronger, then it'd been extremely easy.
Besides, at next release the creep power curve will be more strict, so units will differ more.
Umsplay
Soon enough. I'm planning to release it in this month. New landscape design, unit tree and creep grid are complete by now. Exact date is depend on my free time for map-work. I would release it by now if wouldn't been in making several other projects, which will be acailable at this very portal sooner or later.
Thanks for your support and patience.
This map was a great play. Ive beat it about 10 times now and I still am not tired of it. Cant wait for 1.5 Pearl. Awesome map Xenoth!
142.68.46.xxx
I spent an hour today and tested all the combos. It seems that I don't get anything for 2 infinity combo (4 eights).
24.84.185.xxx
Ok. SO I have pretty much mastered this map man. Every combo...I beat it everytime I play now....Whats taking so long for you to produce 1.5 Pearl? Im not rushing I am just curious if your running into any problems or you needs more ideas. Let us know release date possibilities :)
24.231.104.xxx
make new version kthx
72.38.55.xxx
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